Hey there. Welcome back to fertility cafe. I’m your host Eloise Drane. Welcome to Episode 64 of fertility cafe. In this episode, we’ll be discussing a controversial and often uncomfortable topic, but one that needs to be addressed for intended parents and surrogates to be fully prepared for their journey, terminating a pregnancy.
Eloise Drane
In 1973, the US Supreme Court ruled that women have the right to make decisions over their own bodies, specifically with regard to terminating a pregnancy. Unfortunately, as of this year 2022, that ruling was overturned. While we’re not going to get into the issue of Roe v Wade in this episode, you can listen to my conversation with Chelsea Caldwell in Episode 62 of fertility cafe, where we dig into what Roe v Wade means for the fertility industry. In this episode, we’re going to talk about the complex issue of terminating a pregnancy when it might come up as a possible option during assisted reproduction, and how intended parents and surrogates can handle these complex and challenging topics together. On with me today, we have a special guest, Julie Bindeman, a psychologist specializing in third party reproduction, who has experienced her own assisted reproduction process and many struggles along with it. Julie, welcome, and thank you so much for being here.
Julie Bindeman
I’m so happy to be here, Eloise, I am a longtime listener. So it’s fabulous to be able to actually speak to you, and not just through my headphones while you don’t hear me.
Eloise Drane
Thank you. I appreciate that. I’m just going to jump right in and ask first, let’s start with your story. You know, what has kind of been your firsthand experience with third party reproduction?
Julie Bindeman
Sure. So I came to the world of fertility counseling in sort of a unique way. So I have an infertility story. But I’ve never had to see an REI. And I think for a lot of people that makes it really confusing for them, which is like, wait a second, Ha, what do you mean, right? So in brief, becoming pregnant is not an issue for me. But maintaining a pregnancy has been something that has been a challenge. I was really fortunate that the first time I became knowingly pregnant, at least, we had a very full term, really uneventful pregnancy. And it gave me a really unfortunate template in a lot of ways because it helped to solidify the mythology that once you get a positive pregnancy test, nine months later, you have a baby at the end. So that was my first experience with pregnancy and reproduction.
Julie Bindeman
And when we decided that we wanted more kids, that’s when my story really veered off course in a way that I was never able to have predicted or imagined. So I was able to get pregnant again. And something felt off to me about the pregnancy. And even though I went to the doctor, and we saw the electro cardiac activity that people refer to as a heartbeat, but it’s not actually a heartbeat, but that’s cool. They asked me to come back two weeks later on, when I came back, growth had stopped. And so what that meant was I had a miscarriage. And it’s a really interesting experience when you’ve had friends and family who have had miscarriages, but it’s been this really cognitive kind of thing. And then it happens to you. And at least my experience was, it became very real very fast. And I understood how people could be really upset in a way that cognitively previously I had not really been able to understand.
Julie Bindeman
So I had a wonderful OB and she had said to me, Look, research shows that you’re the most fertile actually right after a miscarriage. So go ahead. Once your cycle comes back, try again. And you know, hopefully I’ll see you back here soon. And so that is what we did. And I in fact thought that I wasn’t pregnant that next cycle because I thought I had a period come. And I was really surprised two weeks later to be bleeding. And so I called my OB and I was like, Hey, I don’t know what this is like breakthrough bleeding or something because I’m, in my head I’m in cycle. And so they’re like, oh, we’ll take a pregnancy test. And I’m like, No, sillies. I had a period two weeks ago like this can’t be and so it was a big shocker when I took that pregnancy test and it was positive. And so of course if you see blood and you’re pregnant, like your mind goes to one thing which is well this must be a miscarriage. So I was able to get into the OB and have an ultrasound and we saw developing SAC and everything looked to be on schedule. And I had what was called subchorionic hematoma. And that’s where the bleeding was coming from.
Julie Bindeman
So I kept on getting checked. And thesubchorionic hematoma had got bigger the next time I got checked, so I was on bed rest after that. And then after that, it was gone, my body had reabsorbed it, and the pregnancy progressed. And so that was the part that felt really miraculous to me like, oh, my gosh, I have this thing. It felt so scary. And wow, this might be happening. And so I went through all the testing and everything looked great. And I started to try to come up with a game plan about what do I do having a baby. And now at this point in time, I had my own practice. When I had my son, I was in a group practice. So just trying to figure out like, oh, how do I plan a maternity leave, like all of those fun details that we start to think about? And my anatomy scan was scheduled for the Friday before Thanksgiving. And so I went in thinking nothing of it, my partner was able to take the day off, so that we could be together. And because I had had all these scans on my OB, I was outsourced to a radiologists office. And the tech was really chatty. And she’s like, Oh, do you want to know what you you’re having? And I’m like, isn’t that the point of this ultrasound? Like no other point except toknow what you’re having, right. And so she was like, Oh, you’re having a boy. And I remember being a little sad about that. Because I wanted a girl, I already had a boy. But fine, we could pivot, well, maybe we’ll have a third.
Julie Bindeman
So when we went back to our doctor’s office, because we didn’t have a radiologist go over any findings with us, we were just sent back to the OB’s office. And so she was really confused why my husband and I were in really good spirits talking about names, because she knew things we didn’t know yet. So the first things out of her mouth was I’m so sorry. And my response was, I know I’m having another boy, I guess we’ll have to try for a third. Which to me made sense based upon what I know. And then she’s saying to me, Oh, they didn’t say anything to you. She’s like your, your baby has some problems with its brain. And so like that totally poured cold water on us. And I think my husband understood it before I did, because he started crying. And I’m starting to ask about like, oh, well, but how can the brain rewire itself because the brain is this really amazing thing. And it can do that. So we were sent on to an MFM, who confirmed that it was a pretty bad case, symptomatology wise, but not syndrome, like there was no syndrome that we had, but basically, our baby had no brain, and instead of a brain had fluid. And because of all the fluid, there was no place in the skull for a brain to grow.
Julie Bindeman
So we were then sent for further testing and further imaging, which confirmed that this was worse than it was just four days before. And we were given two options, we could carry the pregnancy to term, which maybe the baby would survive, maybe not, maybe the baby would live until he was in his 40s. But he would have no appreciable functioning except the quality of life of a two month old. Or maybe he would die in utero, we just had no idea. Or the second option we were given is we could terminate. And this was in 2009. And this was six months after a physician in Kansas was killed outside of his church, which seems to be completely unrelated to me who lived on the east coast at the time. But because he was killed, and he was an abortion provider, it created a chilling effect on most of the providers on the East Coast. And so the providers in my state that normally would provide health care in the situation like mine, were not offering such health care anymore. So I had a choice where I could drive to another state, and I could have surgery, or I could labor and deliver in my state and basically have to go through labor and delivery for a baby who had no chance.
Julie Bindeman
And so we chose to stay home and we chose to do that. And we were told this was a one in a million, but this doesn’t happen. You know, just go ahead and get pregnant. Certainly pregnancy is not the issue, like go get pregnant, and we’ll keep checking in on you. So that’s what I did. I got pregnant again about five months later and we got scanned every two weeks. And at our 17 weeks scan, the brain ventricles were also measuring large just like they had previously. And we were noticing fluid on the brain called hydrocephalus, just like we did previously. And so I went in for the further imaging. And they were like, Okay, we’re seeing the same thing. We’re just seeing it earlier, because we were able to catch it earlier. I was having a girl. And so that felt really hard to me. And given the information we had, we had another choice to make and the same choice to make so because we were now inside of 20 weeks, I was able to have surgery be an option, or I could labor and deliver again. And I was like, Nope, I am all for surgery, the labor and delivery was its own special kind of torture, right? So I will opt for surgery. And I had a wonderful physician who was so caring and just so incredible at such a horrible time. And so he provided that second abortion.
Julie Bindeman
And at this point in time, we started to do a lot of testing, because it was like, hold on. Once, sure one in a million, right? Twice, not so much. That’s not one in a million anymore. So we were never able to see what was going on. And, I remember at one point, I’m talking to my genetic counselor, and I’m like, Okay, so we’re going to do IVF. And we’re going to create embryos. And I know, we don’t know, which is the brain thing, but we’ll have a surrogate, and we’ll get her pregnant, and then I’ll get pregnant too. And then the genetic counselor’s like, so that’s not how it works. And I’m in total problem solving mode. So it made total sense to me. And now of course that I’m in the field, I’m like, wow, that was crazy. But it’s the desperation, right. And we were basically told we had a one in four chance of reoccurrence. And that we would not be able to know until 18 weeks when we did an MRI in pregnancy. And, you know, best of luck. So I’m determined, and stubborn, maybe people would also say and I had a goal, I really wanted that second child. And so I got pregnant again. So now we’re on pregnancy number, hold on five. And we got scan, we had the MRI, we learned we were having a healthy, assigned female at birth child. And you know, everything seemed great.
Julie Bindeman
And then 36 weeks, my MFM is like, so the baby’s measuring small. I think you need to have the baby this week. And I’m like, no, no, thanks. I’m good. But we have her at the end of the week. And now I have a healthy 11 year old. And then because they think we’re crazy. I was like we should have one more. My husband was like, Huh. And he’s like, but pregnancy was hard for you. I’m like it was but I want to try one more time. So we did and we now have normal MRIs during pregnancy. So we had that MRI and everything looks great. And so now I have a healthy nine year old assigned male at birth. So three kids after that my husband’s like, so I’m gonna get a vasectomy. And I’m like, I think that’s an excellent idea. Yeah. And so that ended our child building journey. But what it ignited in me after my second child was born was oh, my gosh, we don’t talk about secondary infertility particularly not when it looks like mine. No, because as I said, I never stepped into an REI’s office. Yeah. And we don’t talk about recurrent pregnancy loss. And we don’t talk about abortion. We don’t talk about terminating for medical reasons. Correct. And so that just ignited this passion. And I did a year long training. I did two more years of supervision so that I could have proficiency beyond just well, I had a journey. And so here I am.
Eloise Drane
Yeah. Oh my God, Julie. Wow. Wow. I had no idea. Good gracious. And that’s the thing. I think that a lot of people just don’t even understand with pregnancies because funny enough. When I got pregnant my very first time. I also ended up going to the hospital because I knew that I was pregnant. And then I woke up one morning and I was bleeding. And I’m like okay, yeah, that’s not supposed to be happening because at that point, I think I was already like 9 or 10 weeks, went to the hospital and they were like, Yeah, unfortunately, you had a miscarriage. Blah, blah, blah ended up having to do a DNC. But they did not tell me though, that I was going to be quite fertile. Right after. And within 30 days, I’m waiting for my period to come, and no periods coming in. I’m like, Okay, what is the problem? Because obviously, there’s something wrong. You know, I should have had my period by now. And I went back to the doctors, and they were like, well, let’s just double check, and let’s just test and they came back. And they were like, Well, we found the reason why you’re not having your period is because you’re pregnant. And I’m like, how is that possible? Like, I just had? And they were like, no, you know, obviously, you know, you just
Julie Bindeman
ovulate before you have a period. Yeah.
Eloise Drane
So and then you are now pregnant. And now my oldest son is 28. And then, when I was pregnant with the surrogacy pregnancy, my very first journey and the very first transfer, I actually did get pregnant. And at about 10, 11 weeks, I ended up going to just a regular appointment, we was getting ready to get released into the OB, and they couldn’t find a heartbeat anymore. But then they found out that the fetus had Trisomy 18, Down syndrome, and an extra chromosome.
Julie Bindeman
Wow. So they had three different extra chromosomes.
Eloise Drane
Three different, yes.
Julie Bindeman
Wow, that’s really rare. Wow.
Eloise Drane
Yes, yes, absolutely. So, you know, I think it just kind of spontaneously miscarried itself, because obviously, there were so many problems. So and I think that’s what a lot of people don’t understand is sometimes your body just does what it needs to do on its own. There’s nothing that you can do, nothing that you can change, nothing that you can make better, it’s just going to happen if it’s supposed to happen. So obviously, I know that you are in our space, you’re a mental health professionals specializing in third party reproduction, and work with a lot of intended parents and surrogates, obviously, going through a pregnancy is hard. Yeah, but going through a pregnancy where there’s potentially a medical problem, then that’s even more difficult. Let’s talk about what intended parents and surrogates can experience, I guess, in the challenging situations when a termination of a pregnancy is kind of looming. I know we often think of terminating a pregnancy as an issue parents have to face but in the world of third party reproduction, we also have to consider the impact of the surrogate, and now we’re talking about somebody else’s body.
Julie Bindeman
Yeah. So let me take a step back, if that’s okay, because I know that all intended parents and all surrogates at least, you know, those that are going through the process, as the American Society of Reproductive Medicine suggests going through, will all have a meeting with someone like me, a mental health professional, that has expertise in this space. And in that meeting, we will have a very uncomfortable conversation about terminating for medical reasons abortion, looking at, the way I like to frame it to intended parents is I want you to consider what are your parenting boundaries? What kind of child are you able, whether that’s emotionally, financially, psychologically able to care for? And what kind of child are you not able to care for, and there is no shame in either of those. Either being able to or not being able to. And so we start talking about a lot of different circumstances, we start talking about Trisomy abnormalities, which seemed to be the most common, and oftentimes, I’ll have intended parents be like, Yeah, but you know, we’ve already done PGT-A for embryos, and I’m like, excellent. And it’s 98%, you know, correct. And so we have now this 2% chance that what the test said is not correct. And so I hear you, and so we probably won’t have to manage this and just in case.
Julie Bindeman
And so I talked about it in terms of first trimester terminating for medical reasons, and what might come up and what that might feel like. And then they talk about second trimester, third trimester, because that’s different. And PGT-A is not going to find that, as I said, there was no genetic test that could have shown me what was going on. And so there was no way I could have known prior to that 18 week MRI. So that’s where my story, where my experience comes in terms of navigating some of these conversations, and I’ll walk people through because I’m like, Look, that ultrasound could show you something like a clubfoot, that ultrasound could show you something like a cleft palate. That ultrasound could show you organs growing outside of the body, that ultrasound could show you that the heart doesn’t have all the valves that it needs that ultrasound could show you that the brain isn’t there, that ultrasound could show you that your baby’s measuring really small. And maybe it’s not something genetic, but maybe there’s just these other things going on that bring the doctors out.
Julie Bindeman
So what are your parenting boundaries? And we’ll have a conversation about it. And I recognize to them, I said, Look, this probably won’t happen to you. And you know, so you’ll probably never have to think about this conversation again. But in the rare instance you do, we have started the conversation between the two of you. So each of you have a sense of where the other one lies on this. I also have that same kind of conversation with a gestational carrier and her partner if she has one, and we talked about that boundary of it is her body, and it is someone else’s child. And that is a really interesting tug of war between the two that even if you say in the contract, you would consent to an abortion. If this situation occurs, you still have the right to not consent to that abortion, and that’s okay. It can provide some legal difficulties. But you have a right to do whatever it is that feels right to do with your body. Just like if the carrier’s health is being impacted, and it’s a healthy baby, but an abortion is the best thing for the carrier, the carrier has the right to say I need to have an abortion because this is my health. Right. And you know, I’m not going to sacrifice my health for this.
Julie Bindeman
So I wanted just to back up to that, because now we’re in this space where Oh, my gosh, this is real. This is not just this hypothetical, that some weird psychologist is asking us about. No, this is now real. And I think what happens is that, especially if we’re talking about second and third trimester discoveries, that feels differently than a first trimester discovery. Not that one is better or easier. I’m not trying to say it in that way. But for a carrier, the pregnancy is very real in the second trimester, she is showing, she’s started to tell people as she needs to tell people, she might start to feel movement. So it’s becoming this really real thing for her. And, you know, she’s also invested in doing this really good thing for a set of intended parents. And so that can feel also really fraught, that I’m doing this good thing. And in part of doing this good thing, they’re asking me to terminate this pregnancy, right. And you’re right, it is managing how the intended parents are coming about this, how that gestational carrier feels about it, because I know carriers that change their minds, that you know, again, or especially if it’s something that’s gray, that’s a place where carriers might change their mind that they tend to feel very comfortable. If it’s like, this is not something compatible with meaningful life, that feels very different to them, then there’s a lot going on here. And we’re not sure what this means in terms of meaningful life. Right? That’s a really different scenario. And I can appreciate the intended parents being like, I don’t want that uncertainty. And I can appreciate the carrier being like, but why aren’t we giving this baby a chance?
Eloise Drane
And what happens if the parents and the surrogates disagree?
Julie Bindeman
That’s where some of the lawyers come in too. So really, we should have another guest right now. But it’s also where the mental health professionals come in, right? Is there a place to have a space where people can hear where one another’s coming from? Yes, you know, and really, I mean, I think about a carrier I was just working with and the intended parents, they had a great diagnosis. And she wanted to get more information to figure out like, well, is this gray, is this black and white. And the intended parents, I think, felt squeamish even about that, because in their minds, they were just going to terminate the pregnancy. And as more information came, it got more gray, it got less black and white, it got more gray but gray in a place where the baby could be fine. And so that created a lot of feelings for the carrier, because she feels like she’s giving up on this baby because that’s what the intended parents wishes are.
Julie Bindeman
And she recognizes that like it is their baby, but also she felt really used because they did have this conversation and you know, she felt like the intended parents were really cavalier about making this kind of decision. So being able to try to come together and to talk about it, I think ultimately, it’s getting tied up in legal. So I don’t know what happened. But it gets really fraught, it gets really hard. And it, it means that we need to confront our ableism. And how we feel about people with disabilities and the realities of our society in terms of people with disabilities, and the realities in terms of what it is to care for a child that might have ongoing disabilities and might become an adult. And are there other kids to think about too, so we get, I wish I had clear answers for you. I obviously don’t,
Eloise Drane
Right. Yeah. And I don’t know if that’s even a possibility to have clear answers. I mean, I just feel like it’s an impossible situation to, like you said to literally be black or white. And unfortunately, both sides are affected, you know, I don’t think any parent is going to go into this, you know, put forth the effort, the time, the money, the all of it, you know, just to say, okay, so willy nilly, like, okay, fine, it is something wrong, let’s just terminate a pregnancy, you know, and I did have one time an intended parent tell me, because we were going through matching with a surrogate, and they were of a stance if there was a medical necessity that they would want to terminate the pregnancy. And the surrogate actually asked why. And she said, you know, you’re going through all of this, why would you want to do that? The intending parents were like we don’t, we don’t want to do that. We don’t ever want to have to make that decision.
Eloise Drane
However, we also recognize, though, that ultimately, this will be our child, and we will be responsible for this human being, not for our lifetime, but for their lifetime. Yeah. And what would happen, if they are dependent on us, and both of us die? Now they are the responsibility of someone else, it’s one thing to say a child is a responsibility of another human. But what about once that human becomes an adult, who then is going to step up and say, I am going to take on the responsibility now of an adult because the parents I have now are deceased. And both parent’s only children. So there was no siblings to say, or auntie or, you know, a family member who can take care. And both of them, both of their parents were also deceased.
Julie Bindeman
Yeah, yeah. It is thinking about it. And I think you have to think about it in that generational and intergenerational kind of way. Because we’re not just talking about a cute little baby. That’s right. And you know what, we get it babies and young children, they are dependent on their parents. But when you have an adult who has the capacity of only a baby, that’s a different ballgame. Yeah,
Eloise Drane
That’s right. That’s right. And then we also had a situation funny enough, you brought both things up, where we had a surrogate went in for her 14 week scan, and come to find out the baby also didn’t have a brain. And the intestines were growing outside of the body. And now the baby still had the heartbeat. And the surrogate was literally, I mean, her heart was just being pulled out of her. Because she’s like, Oh, my God, but there’s a heartbeat, I can hear it, I could, you know, see the heartbeat. And, and she was definitely of the stance that she really didn’t want to terminate a pregnancy. But the more they started doing research and doing you know, scans and doing bloodwork and everything else, they also found out that because the intestines were being created or being developed outside of the body, that it was secreting hormones that actually was putting the surrogates life now at risk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately, they ended up having to terminate that pregnancy. But that surrogate was just like, I’ll carry the pregnancy. I don’t care. I can’t do a termination. This fetus has a heartbeat.
Julie Bindeman
Unfortunately, we put too much of a value on that heartbeat, which is when you heard my story, it’s the electro magnetic pulsing, and we put a value on that. And we’re not putting a value on the marriage. We’re not putting a value on any other children that might be there. We’re not putting a value on that person and what it might be like to go through surgeries, to have to be potentially spend their whole life intubated, their whole life in a hospital setting or their whole life at home. But with nurses and again, the toll that takes on a family, the toll that takes on a community, most states would not be able to assist in this or they don’t care to assist. Yes. So we can say it either way. But I think that’s where it becomes really problematic that we look at the heartbeat as the end all be all, and we don’t look at harder questions for sure. Quality of Life, quantity of life. What does that mean? And it’s not that it’s not valuing life, but it’s actually really centering that person’s life. And what that will be like, and, you know, what is it like to have to go through surgery after surgery after surgery? What is it like to be kept at a distance from human touch? Right? What is it like to have the beeps of an isolette because you’re in the NICU? These are very real things
Eloise Drane
Yes, absolutely. And I know that, you know, we’re talking about something very, as we keep going back black and white. Okay, there was a medical problem. It was clear it was seen, and we know. But go back to what you were discussing about that gray area. And how do you make that call? How do you make that decision? And I think that there is no way for, you know, just because your situation was this, that the next person situation is going to be exactly the same. You just have to know that you’re going to have to look at all factors, which I would like to actually discuss and what factors are most important and should be triaged accordingly, what is your thought?
Julie Bindeman
So I think when we’re talking about this, to also recognize that the gestational carrier and the intended parents might have different factors that they put higher values on, let me just sort of say that, in terms of factors that I think are really important is I think, certainly someone’s religious and moral standpoints come into play, what is their value system? And how does that come into play? So how do they value life? What is the meaning of life? These hard kinds of questions that I’m talking about? I think another factor is, again, as parents, what are we able to manage? What can we do financially, emotionally, psychologically, who are our supports? How strong is our marriage, right, because we’ve already taken a beating by going through the crisis of infertility, like this is now, it’s like the punches keep on coming. Dealing with a medically fragile child is in and of itself, a very worthwhile endeavor, it could be you know, and it can be really taxing too on a relationship.
Julie Bindeman
So I think that’s an important, all of those factors are really important too. Thinking about the future, right? How might this impact our future family? And how, what does life look like after we’re gone for this child, right? Who might be a child, who might be an adult? We don’t know. Like none of us get our own expiration dates, they just happen upon us. So really being able to think about, okay, what is our long term plan? What does that look like? And if we are going to have somebody else care for this child, do we have the wherewithal to at least set them up financially, so that that’s one less thing that they have to acquire? And that’s a reality unfortunately, I’m not trying to sound callous about it. It’s just unfortunately, a reality. So those are factors that specifically the intended parents have to think about, I think the intended parents also have to consider whether we do this or not, we have to wake up with ourselves every day. And what will that feel like every day? What does it feel like to carry the burden of raising a medically compromised child? What does it feel like to carry the burden of terminating because there is no burden free option here?
Eloise Drane
That’s right. And even to go back to the surrogate as well, who also has I feel a burden that she’s gonna have to carry in the sense of, okay. The intended parents terminated this pregnancy. And now I have to carry that within myself of knowing that, you know, I have this child that I had to terminate. Now, granted, it wasn’t your child, but you still had to endure that process in your head for yourself. Your body had to go through that. And then also if you don’t terminate, and there was a medical complication, and there was problems. Now, again, you also have that thought of, oh my God, how is this child’s life going to be and what is that going to look like. I tell people all the time, early gestational surrogate. And doing it three times, you are unhuman if you don’t have some kind of love for the child that you are carrying, I don’t care that it’s not your child, I don’t care that it’s not genetically related to you, you’re unhuman if you don’t have love for that child that you are creating, and nurturing and loving, and you know, to hand back to his or her parents, I mean, my first set of twins that I carried, they are now 13. The other one is nine and the other one is seven. I think about them every year on their birthdays, obviously. And then throughout the year, as you know, school starts I start thinking like, oh, they’re in this grade. Oh, yeah. So they’re probably having this milestone or you can’t turn it off.
Julie Bindeman
Cos you are part of that story. Yeah,
Eloise Drane
That’s right. So and I know it’s definitely difficult to, I mean, surrogacy in itself is hard. But now adding all of these other factors, of course, is going to be difficult. So question for you is how can intended parents and surrogates move forward? Let’s say they had to terminate a pregnancy, to move forward to try again, if that was something that they want to do.
Julie Bindeman
So I think what works really well for for both parents is if there is a way of being able to mourn together, because it shows to the carrier that the intended parents are not these callous people, you know, and it shows the intended parents that oh, the carrier is not just doing this, because it’s a financially, you know, positive thing for them to do, right. Like, I think there are some mythology that comes into it. So being able, if there is a relationship there to be able to mourn together, can be really, really useful. And really healing because this dyad, this, you know, these two couples are going through this together. And that is a uniqueness of surrogacy is that there’s truly another couple who understands what losing this particular baby is like, because you’re in it with another couple, which is different than when it is your own, and you’re just managing it with your partner if you have one.
Julie Bindeman
So you have this potential support that’s built in, again, if the relationship is able to withhold that. There are relationships that can and there are relationships that can’t sustain that. There are some relationships in which this brings actually the carrier or the intended parents closer together. And yeah, they want to try again, because now everyone feels so invested in this, that like, this is a project we are all taking on together. There are other times where the intended parents are like, Ooh, we got really burned in that scenario. And let’s just start somewhere new, because again, it’s the idea of, then we won’t have this happen again. And it’s I think, fear driven, which makes a lot of sense, again, a lot of expense, a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of tragedy has already happened way before a termination might have happened.
Julie Bindeman
I think something else that’s really concrete for us to think about too is that termination is not accessible everywhere. And it seems like by the day, it’s becoming more and more inaccessible. And so are the intended parents able to help the carrier navigate? Okay, let’s find where you can go, you know, maybe I’ll be there with you, I can be a support for you, because this is our baby, too. And how do we navigate that process? How do we navigate the carrier being away from her family, because when we have a third of the country inaccessible, and again, more occurring every day, we’re talking about travel. And we’re talking about an overnight and this particularly if we’re looking at the second and the third trimester, we’re talking about procedures that tend to be multi day procedures.
Julie Bindeman
And so that’s another piece or if the the intended parents can’t come, you know, what are they able to do to show support? What are they able to do to help lighten some of the load of actually having to experience this, the carrier might have to go to a place where there are protesters. And so what is that then, like? How does that reinforce the carrier’s beliefs, or how does that reinforce that like the carrier is actually doing the right thing for this family? So there’s lots of different ways of thinking about it, but that intimidation can be really scary. So I think you know, again, there’s this legal picture that continues to unfold. We have different states where if you get an abortion, people can report you and they get $10,000 for that. So this is becoming really like this is becoming almost like science fiction. And yet this is what are reality is. And so I say all these things because it adds complications to something that already is agony. Yeah. And sucks. Yeah. And it adds more and more layers to just make it hurt more. And it doesn’t serve anyone to do this.
Eloise Drane
And it really is a shame that unfortunately, these politicians really don’t understand the impact of the decisions that they make. They have no idea. They only see from the top up, they really truly have absolutely no idea what the US population really needs. Quite honestly, I feel like every single politician just needs to go away. Just like, just everybody leave. And let’s just start from bottom on up. So yeah, here’s my opinion for the day. There you go.
Julie Bindeman
My father likes to remind me that a politician’s first priority is to get reelected. That’s right. So it’s not so much about the policies they do. It’s about what’s gonna get them reelected.
Eloise Drane
That’s right. And I don’t care what color you say you are. So they’re all the same. So to end this, what advice or key takeaways would you give to those going through issues of potentially, you know, something looming? And maybe they have to consider terminating a pregnancy?
Julie Bindeman
So the advice that I would give is that if you’re even contemplating becoming a carrier, that you and your partner have long, hard conversations about this, about what would be the circumstances that would be okay, or not, okay, if there even are circumstances that would be okay. Because I think it starts with the match. And not to say that all matches are perfect, but it starts with a match. And we have to have a really honest conversation. And that’s how I frame it to carriers is like, don’t just tell me, you’ll do anything like at the end of the day that you have to be okay with this. And if you’re not okay, then I want to make sure that we know that so you’re not matching with somebody who has different ideas. Exactly. And who would ask different things of you. That’s right. So I think that’s really important, right? And that even goes for someone who’s like, I’d be open to terminating, if they get matched with intended parents who are like, no, we want to carry the term, because that has impact for the carrier as well, in terms of her health. So I think, again, like it’s really important, so it starts with the match.
Julie Bindeman
And I’d say the same for intended parents too like think about what is your parenting capacity. And that’s an okay conversation to have, if we’re in this situation, you know, is their capacity to be there for one another, because again, it’s this really unique opportunity, that there’s another couple that is going through this loss of the same baby with you. It’s not, oh, they’re losing their baby. And that’s different. It’s they’re losing the same baby with you. It’s that this grouping, this small group has come together to create this child and everybody has a loss in there, and being able to support one another. And whether that is therapeutic support, whether that’s able to talk to one another, whether that is going to different online support groups that are there, whether that is reading books of other people who have experienced this.
Julie Bindeman
While it is rare to be a gestational carrier and have to terminate, just like it is rare to not be a gestational carrier and have to terminate, you would not be the first if you’re finding yourself in this situation. And so that’s another thing to remember is that this is not unique or new, that other people have walked this path, that it is a hard path, but it is a path that you can have healing from. And I say that for both gestational carriers and for intended parents, that what feels so hard right now will not always be. But when you’re in the middle of the fire, all you’re seeing are flames around you. And so it’s really hard to imagine what does rebuilding look like? Or what does the next thing look like?
Eloise Drane
Yes, definitely. Well, Julie, I am so grateful that you were willing to share your story and then just, you know, willing to help impart some knowledge of how do you even deal with this termination of pregnancy and now, as you mentioned, even more difficult with all of the added stress that has been added since Roe v. Wade. So I really do appreciate you taking the time to speak with me and to share with my listeners.
Julie Bindeman
Thanks so much for being open to talking about this. This is certainly not the conversation people like to think about.
Eloise Drane
No, no, not at all. But it’s definitely something that’s needed. And so we need to talk about it so that it’s not a foreign thing. And you know, people aren’t just on their own trying to figure this out.
Julie Bindeman
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Eloise Drane
So thank you for joining me. I appreciate it.
Julie Bindeman
Thanks so much for having me.
Eloise Drane
Thank you so much for listening. If you found this episode helpful, please rate fertility Cafe on your favorite listening platform, and share this episode with anyone you think could benefit from hearing it. Thank you so much for joining me today. Until next time, remember, love has no limits. Neither should parenthood
